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[Dan Nguyen]

On Sat, Aug 19, 2000 at 06:19:26PM -0400, Marcel Kunath wrote:
> >
> > Accusing the University of not being diverse in their selection of
> > computers is ridiculous.  Yes, there are x86/Windows labs all
> > around campus, but:
> 
> No it's not ridiculous. Even though your examples are true they by
> far don't display what has happened over the past 2.5 years I have
> been here.  EBH used to have some non-x86 machines in some labs on
> second floor.  Removed and replaced with win. It used to have Mac
> platform as well. I think they also got replaced with win. Then CC
> had a room full of Macs on 2nd floor. The whole room got
> resturctured and now contains 3 Imacs. Union does have Macs but the
> machines nobody uses and I think they are old as dirt.  Basically
> MSU is phasing out any non-windows stuff. I still feel I am right as
> probably 95% of the stuff on campus is win.

Like with any business, the public labs provide what people want.
Remember that these labs are used by classes like CSE101, and
generally students who would not be comformtable on anything other
than Windows or a Mac.  Most of the Macs that I see seem to be old,
and that could be one reason they are not used.  But the school gets
new computers for these labs all the time (mostly from Dell it seems),
and they go where their is need.  Wells for example has 3 Windows
labs, and 1 Mac, perhaps one reason for the seemingly overwelhming
desire for Windows machines stems from CSE101.  Often these labs are
filled with CSE101 classes one after another.  High usage means newer
computers sooner.  With 65 sections of 30 students you have neerly
2000 students per semester being exposed with Windows.

Any phasing out is because there is little need for non-windows
machine in other classes.  Perhaps the only classes I can think of
which uses a mac on a regular basis would be art classes.  


> All the other examples basically affects servers and the main public
> usually doesn't even realize what is running there. I can only take
> so much Presidential coverage this Fall. I like to see a piece of
> writing on the fact that MSU's internals runs on FreeBSD, Unix but
> the desktops seem to be mostly Win and at the end we can ask: Why?

Why? Simple... Take CSE231 and ask how many of them have heard of
FreeBSD.  Unfortunately most of them have heard of Sun and Solaris
before taking the class, and I would be suprised how many realize that
the machines they use are Sun boxen.  Now take a random class a James
Madison student might take, and ask them what FreeBSD.  I would be
suprised if you have any.  Linux would be slightly different, but that
is because of all the media exposure Linux has got recently.  Why
don't you see *nix boxen?  Is there really a general need?  Probably
not, unix in general isn't popular is a technically less savy crowd.

Also it requires people to run and maintain these labs.  You wouldn't
want to see hundred of cracked computers being used to run a DoS
attack now would you?  If you can show them that the general public
wants a *nix, you'll probably be able to get machines.



> > Besides, do you really think that lusers would be happy without
> > their Windows?  They get it shoved down their throats in ads.
> > They actually *believe* in this Windows stuff.
> 
> So I am confused if you agree with my money and others students
> money being spend on things which are not in my ideology? I know you
> got your education at MSU supported through funds but you have to
> think of here from the ideological standpoint, and the people who
> pay for education should have their money used how they see
> fit. Maybe I am the only one all I said was they should question if
> maybe there is something brewing here or we should continue to poor
> dollars towards proprietory things.

Preaching an ideology to people who want to learn and listen is
different from preaching to people who do not want to learn.  Things
like the micro computing labs are there to benefit the entire MSU
community not just you.  There are some people who have never stepped
foot into one, while others who visit every day.  The money from your
tution pays for many things that you could not possibly be aware of.
And I'm sure a part of that goes to improving the labs.

Is it an improvement to have a lab filled with computers which only a
handfull of people use?  Did that money go to the right place?  

 
> I don't understand how you can draw a line between supporting free
> software for the home user but you don't support free software in
> the school?  This is not a subject of happiness when people they use
> a lab computer. This is about are we having the right to ask if
> money is spend in the way it should be spend or should we proceed
> otherwise in the future? MSU is an educational facility and I have
> learned a lot from Linux and free software. Is it maybe more
> educational for us to use non-win stuff? Is MSU creators free
> thinkers or button pushing robots?

The home user is in charge of what they run own their own computer.
The operating systems which are used aren't chosen for any reason.
The people who run these system are paid to look ahead and evaluate if
another product will suit the school.  When Windows 98 came out, why
didn't the microlabs switch?  I'm not entirely sure.  Will the labs
swith to Windows 2000, or Windows ME?  I'm not sure either.  But I am
sure people have explored the possibility.  The print servers in each lab
ocassionally run Linux or Solaris?  Why?  Because it's appropriate for
the job.

MSU is an eduational institution, but in many places it's run like a
corporation.  And running something new and different just to run
something new and different doesn't make sense.  It's one thing to
blindly go into untested territory, and it's another to weigh the
benefits and drawbacks.  That is why many servers run non-windows
products.  The benefits outway the drawbacks.


> I was once a guy who believed into Windows. When I used a win95
> computer in 1996 for the first time I thought it was the best thing
> ever created. well I think different today. People change their
> opinions and maybe, and that is all I am asking for, the university
> should just give me the respect and let me know if they have used
> time to weigh off themselves free software offers against commercial
> ones.

What are the benefits of running free software?  1) It's free.
What are the drawbacks? 1) It's often less user-friendly, and
sometimes unusable to a less technically savy public.


> I am sure you never spend a minute on a win pc but you have to
> realize some of us are not that lucky and I have to go in every day
> to work and use proprietory software I don't condone with and from
> time to time take hits from co-workers repeating to me the usual
> FUD, and I have to live with the fact that we switched over to
> Outlook as mail system and nobody seems to like it but we still
> spend the money on it, and I have to live with the fact that I walk
> out on a meeting where they mentioned InterDev 7 will be out in a
> year and they seem to be willing to buy it at any price offered and
> I ask "why are you so willing to make this upgrade without checking
> if we need any of the new features?"

Why? No one has ever got fired for buy Microsoft products.  Linus does
not believe the Linux will be ready for business users by perhaps next
year, but does not expect Linux to be a "no-brainer" in 5 to 10
years.  You look down a Microsoft, but they have done somethings
right, and somethings wrong.  

> I think we deserve a wider coverage of topics in the local news
> media and it surely can only help to gain additional interest from
> the community into subjects like ours. You can't really say Linux or
> the GLLUG or Postgres or Apache is famous around the people of East
> Lansing.




-- 
     Dan Nguyen     |  It is with true love as it is with ghosts;
  nguyend7@msu.edu  |  everyone talks of it, but few have seent it.
   dnn@debian.org   |                -Maxime De La Rochefoucauld