news media

Sean picasso@madflower.com
Sat, 19 Aug 2000 16:37:05 -0400 (EDT)


You _CANNOT_ hit this nail with a cost analysis. MSU has a contract iwth
Dell, I would guess they pay right around 10-20% less *hasnt looked at the
discounts lately* then the prices you see on the net. 

The University gets a shitload of free software from vendors. Do you think
they actually pay full price for M$? I doubt they pay anything. 

Where You CAN hit the nail, is by asking the simple question. Why are all
the courses taught to Windows machines? Are you guys too stupid to be able
to teach this on another platform?

(yes this can cause some profs eyes to bug out so don't EVER ask it this
way especially to your prof)

Other loaded questions could be.
If you are trying to run one of the best CPS programs why do you bother
having Windows machines?

If UNIX pays 10k more per year, why do I want to bother to learn, Windows.

Are our profs any good? they don't seem to know much about computers other
then Windows. 

If M$ still hasnt been able to get HotMail moved off Solaris/FreeBSD what
good is teaching how to use Windows, when I will have to use UNIX in the
real world or don't our profs know about the real world?

If I came here for an education, and I want to learn and I want to be the 
best. Why do you restrict my learning to windows? 


On Sat, 19 Aug 2000, Dan Nguyen wrote:

> On Sat, Aug 19, 2000 at 06:19:26PM -0400, Marcel Kunath wrote:
> > >
> > > Accusing the University of not being diverse in their selection of
> > > computers is ridiculous.  Yes, there are x86/Windows labs all
> > > around campus, but:
> > 
> > No it's not ridiculous. Even though your examples are true they by
> > far don't display what has happened over the past 2.5 years I have
> > been here.  EBH used to have some non-x86 machines in some labs on
> > second floor.  Removed and replaced with win. It used to have Mac
> > platform as well. I think they also got replaced with win. Then CC
> > had a room full of Macs on 2nd floor. The whole room got
> > resturctured and now contains 3 Imacs. Union does have Macs but the
> > machines nobody uses and I think they are old as dirt.  Basically
> > MSU is phasing out any non-windows stuff. I still feel I am right as
> > probably 95% of the stuff on campus is win.
> 
> Like with any business, the public labs provide what people want.
> Remember that these labs are used by classes like CSE101, and
> generally students who would not be comformtable on anything other
> than Windows or a Mac.  Most of the Macs that I see seem to be old,
> and that could be one reason they are not used.  But the school gets
> new computers for these labs all the time (mostly from Dell it seems),
> and they go where their is need.  Wells for example has 3 Windows
> labs, and 1 Mac, perhaps one reason for the seemingly overwelhming
> desire for Windows machines stems from CSE101.  Often these labs are
> filled with CSE101 classes one after another.  High usage means newer
> computers sooner.  With 65 sections of 30 students you have neerly
> 2000 students per semester being exposed with Windows.
> 
> Any phasing out is because there is little need for non-windows
> machine in other classes.  Perhaps the only classes I can think of
> which uses a mac on a regular basis would be art classes.  
> 
> 
> > All the other examples basically affects servers and the main public
> > usually doesn't even realize what is running there. I can only take
> > so much Presidential coverage this Fall. I like to see a piece of
> > writing on the fact that MSU's internals runs on FreeBSD, Unix but
> > the desktops seem to be mostly Win and at the end we can ask: Why?
> 
> Why? Simple... Take CSE231 and ask how many of them have heard of
> FreeBSD.  Unfortunately most of them have heard of Sun and Solaris
> before taking the class, and I would be suprised how many realize that
> the machines they use are Sun boxen.  Now take a random class a James
> Madison student might take, and ask them what FreeBSD.  I would be
> suprised if you have any.  Linux would be slightly different, but that
> is because of all the media exposure Linux has got recently.  Why
> don't you see *nix boxen?  Is there really a general need?  Probably
> not, unix in general isn't popular is a technically less savy crowd.
> 
> Also it requires people to run and maintain these labs.  You wouldn't
> want to see hundred of cracked computers being used to run a DoS
> attack now would you?  If you can show them that the general public
> wants a *nix, you'll probably be able to get machines.
> 
> 
> 
> > > Besides, do you really think that lusers would be happy without
> > > their Windows?  They get it shoved down their throats in ads.
> > > They actually *believe* in this Windows stuff.
> > 
> > So I am confused if you agree with my money and others students
> > money being spend on things which are not in my ideology? I know you
> > got your education at MSU supported through funds but you have to
> > think of here from the ideological standpoint, and the people who
> > pay for education should have their money used how they see
> > fit. Maybe I am the only one all I said was they should question if
> > maybe there is something brewing here or we should continue to poor
> > dollars towards proprietory things.
> 
> Preaching an ideology to people who want to learn and listen is
> different from preaching to people who do not want to learn.  Things
> like the micro computing labs are there to benefit the entire MSU
> community not just you.  There are some people who have never stepped
> foot into one, while others who visit every day.  The money from your
> tution pays for many things that you could not possibly be aware of.
> And I'm sure a part of that goes to improving the labs.
> 
> Is it an improvement to have a lab filled with computers which only a
> handfull of people use?  Did that money go to the right place?  
> 
>  
> > I don't understand how you can draw a line between supporting free
> > software for the home user but you don't support free software in
> > the school?  This is not a subject of happiness when people they use
> > a lab computer. This is about are we having the right to ask if
> > money is spend in the way it should be spend or should we proceed
> > otherwise in the future? MSU is an educational facility and I have
> > learned a lot from Linux and free software. Is it maybe more
> > educational for us to use non-win stuff? Is MSU creators free
> > thinkers or button pushing robots?
> 
> The home user is in charge of what they run own their own computer.
> The operating systems which are used aren't chosen for any reason.
> The people who run these system are paid to look ahead and evaluate if
> another product will suit the school.  When Windows 98 came out, why
> didn't the microlabs switch?  I'm not entirely sure.  Will the labs
> swith to Windows 2000, or Windows ME?  I'm not sure either.  But I am
> sure people have explored the possibility.  The print servers in each lab
> ocassionally run Linux or Solaris?  Why?  Because it's appropriate for
> the job.
> 
> MSU is an eduational institution, but in many places it's run like a
> corporation.  And running something new and different just to run
> something new and different doesn't make sense.  It's one thing to
> blindly go into untested territory, and it's another to weigh the
> benefits and drawbacks.  That is why many servers run non-windows
> products.  The benefits outway the drawbacks.
> 
> 
> > I was once a guy who believed into Windows. When I used a win95
> > computer in 1996 for the first time I thought it was the best thing
> > ever created. well I think different today. People change their
> > opinions and maybe, and that is all I am asking for, the university
> > should just give me the respect and let me know if they have used
> > time to weigh off themselves free software offers against commercial
> > ones.
> 
> What are the benefits of running free software?  1) It's free.
> What are the drawbacks? 1) It's often less user-friendly, and
> sometimes unusable to a less technically savy public.
> 
> 
> > I am sure you never spend a minute on a win pc but you have to
> > realize some of us are not that lucky and I have to go in every day
> > to work and use proprietory software I don't condone with and from
> > time to time take hits from co-workers repeating to me the usual
> > FUD, and I have to live with the fact that we switched over to
> > Outlook as mail system and nobody seems to like it but we still
> > spend the money on it, and I have to live with the fact that I walk
> > out on a meeting where they mentioned InterDev 7 will be out in a
> > year and they seem to be willing to buy it at any price offered and
> > I ask "why are you so willing to make this upgrade without checking
> > if we need any of the new features?"
> 
> Why? No one has ever got fired for buy Microsoft products.  Linus does
> not believe the Linux will be ready for business users by perhaps next
> year, but does not expect Linux to be a "no-brainer" in 5 to 10
> years.  You look down a Microsoft, but they have done somethings
> right, and somethings wrong.  
> 
> > I think we deserve a wider coverage of topics in the local news
> > media and it surely can only help to gain additional interest from
> > the community into subjects like ours. You can't really say Linux or
> > the GLLUG or Postgres or Apache is famous around the people of East
> > Lansing.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
>      Dan Nguyen     |  It is with true love as it is with ghosts;
>   nguyend7@msu.edu  |  everyone talks of it, but few have seent it.
>    dnn@debian.org   |                -Maxime De La Rochefoucauld
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